Vegan Diet: Protein Need, Protein/Calcium relation & Needs when working out
I changed my diet to vegan and have been reading through a lot of sources on the Internet and there are various recommendations on how much protein we need per day. For normal activity level I found something like 0.7 g protein /kg body weight per day. For those that work out recommendations range from 0.7 - 3.0 g protein / kg body weight. Does anyone knows what is really needed to cover basic body needs and how much should be added if one works out trying to gain weight/muscles?
Also, many sources (contra vegan) say that a vegan diet is not good because one is cutting out milk products and this would lead to a calcium deficit which lead to osteoporosis / weak bone structure. The other sources (rather pro vegan) say that cutting out milk products and the calcium is not a problem: calcium reacts with high dose of protein supply (non vegan diet) and a high dose of calcium intake from milk-products is being absorbed via the urine if a high dose of protein is part of the diet as well. So, a vegan diet does not weaken the bone structure / increases risk of osteoporosis because less calcium is absorbed due to the lower protein intake.
Now, my second question relates to the first as I am wondering what happens if I increase my protein intake when I am on a vegan diet? If the above is correct, my body would probably absorb too much calcium and I could actually end up weakening my bone structure as I am cutting out all milk-products? Do I need to increase my calcium intake ie via supplements?
I am currently working out trying to build some muscles and gain weight using hemp protein as a protein supplement (best amino acid profile & best fats)
Anyone who can advise?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Zen Alchemist on
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Nature is complex so we don't have to be.
Most people don’t realize there’s not a single plant on this earth, not one, that doesn’t contain every vitamin, every mineral, every enzyme, all 200,000 identifiable proteins. Every plant has them, including grass. That’s why huge animals like horses and oxen, elephants, all they eat is plant, and look at their strength and their health.
As far as calcium - the issue is a calcium magnesium balance, and usually people get too much calcium and not enough magnesium, but by eating the 'rainbow' of the plant kingdom, you can let go of all the calculations and just enjoy what mother earth is offering you.
Increasing protein intake usually results in bringing about an acid environment in the body. You don't need protein per se, to increase muscle, you need the precursors that make up proteins (amino acids) and enzymes to help process things, but again, there are plenty of vegetarian and vegan hue-mans that get 'swolled up' without using any type of supplements.
As Thoreau put perfectly... One farmer says to me, "You cannot live on vegetable food solely, for it furnishes the body with nothing to make bones with:" and so he religiously devotes a part of his day to supplying his system with the raw material of bones; walking all the while he talks behind his oxen, which, with vegetable-made bones, jerk him and his lumbering plow along in spite of every obstacle.”
Cheers
-Zen
try this -http://www.livingiseasy.com.au/podcasts/don-tolman/
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Permalink Reply by Sucram on
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Thanks Zen! Dan Tolman has indeed an interesting perspective in terms of how food looks: "...Celery looks like a bone, snaps like a bone. Now, they know it [remises] osteoporosis in as little as six months. And it just goes on and on...."
On the other hand, I do think that it is important to really balance what you are eating and why. We obviously do not have our taste so that eating becomes a pleasure. The taste once helped us to identify what our body needs. Unfortunately I dont speak this body language properly so that I know what i should take from the 'rainbow' (due to my previous diet and education I only understand the body word for "SUGAR" :) ) Probably one needs to use nutrition tables if he doesn't want to run into deficits or toxic overload? I am 68kg now, 1.85m tall and tend to loose weight. I cant just let go and enjoy nature...I would love too because i always considered eating as a waste of time.... No, I really need a plan to gain more weight and balance my intake properly.
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I wouldn't really even try to attempt to push you farther in the direction of 'numb'ers and synthetic / artificial perspectives from a left brained attitude. Even if I did, it just gets more and more complex.
Your concerns are understandable. Although, to say that using a formulaic 'table' to decipher what your body needs, would require you to know everything your body is deficient in, and then you are left with more of a mess to consider than you started with.
You basically seem to be saying 'diabetes' through your sugar reference. One thing you can do right away to help to correct your sugars, if that is indeed a dilemma, is to 'trade' in bad sugars for Raw honey. You also say, you need to be concerned with deficits, so a nutrition table would need to be known - first off, don't you think you ALREADY are in a deficit? Second, who made these tables, as they don't seem to working for ANYONE. Again, as Thoreau and sooo many others put it, just look to the animal kingdom - they need no charts and they aren't dealing with the dis-eases we do.
As well, your concern with getting a toxic overload is only a concern if you are eating acidic foods, cooked meats and the likes. You can't overload on plant based bio-available nutrition. The only worry in becoming too toxic would be if you started to cleanse and didn't consume enough water. So, obviously intaking distilled water is a key, whether it is just health you are considering or gaining muscle mass. Water is the transport system IN and OUT for nutrition and toxins. Water IS your blood essentially, so making sure it is 'empty' will allow it to pick up toxin to cleanse through the kidneys and pick up vit/minerals to supply to the body for creating.
I would like to try to help and steer you in the right direction, but I'd need to know what your basic foundation is - how old are you, what does your diet completely look like now and what has it looked like for the course of your life - things like that...
Balancing your intake is as easy as it seems. Let go of what doesn't serve you and intake vegetables fruits nuts from the 7 colors of the rainbow - this is a great start. Especially if you have a sugar dilemma, you can be trading in refined sugar for quality sugars from fruits. Gaining weight can be accomplished by increasing the underground foods you eat (starch based) like potatoes, tubers and such. Again, though the most important thing is how is the body processing this stuff?...And, how is weight put on - in muscle, fat or just buildup in the gut...?
Get back to me in regards to what you diet has consisted of, and let's see if we can make things simple by 'trading' in things for better health. From there, we can look at what organs are having the most trouble and getting those back in order.
Cheer
-Zen
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Wow. Thank you Zen! I am really thankful for any hint in the right direction. I am happy to share where i am coming from and where i am now - there are indeed a couple potentially important in and outs. Iam 38yo, skinny, never weight more then 75 kg, currently below 70kg, no fat, maybe a bit on my belly :). No sports for the past 10 years (only holiday surfing), 15yrs back i did a lot of yoga (daily) and running, swimming (so cardio only) but a series of events got me off the track.
Historic diet
I am 38yo and ever since i anticipated eating as a waste of time, a necessary but boring task. I love cooking though and picked up a lot of stuff from my mother - where everything was about taste. My diet was primarily based on potatoes, noodles, a lot of meat, butter, sour cream, many cheese, but also junk food like pizza, french fries, kebab, mcd an the whole lot. Loads of coffee, cigarettes, occasionally red wine for dinner. my breakfast was a coffee + cigi, maybe a donut later on. for lunch i tried to get full with as little money as possible, so fast food, pizza or pasta. For dinner i used to cook something nice with fresh veggies, for sure meat, potatoes or noodles. Overall no fruits! And a lot of sweets like from kraft, cadbury, etc.
Current diet:
Through a series of events and experiences i started pretty much changing everything about 6 month ago. Actually the first change in the first 3 month was cutting out coffee and i started drinking tea. This already made a big difference (may sound weird but it really was :)). Through a series of events and experiences i ran into the resistance site in January this year and massive changes took place in a very short amount of time after i got activated. From one day to another i stopped all drug habits without even making an effort and started absorbing more and more information, changing the diet to vegetarian first. Then i got into the cleansing and started to increase water intake to 2-3 liter and did some homeopathic cleansing kid for kidney, gall, liver, and lymph system. Shortly after that the virtual cleanse came up on the site and i purchased all the equipment like water distiller, colon and internal cleanse kid. some weeks before and during the cleanse i aplied strict vegan diet(fasting during colon cleans). breakfast was a cup of quinoa with soy milk and a banana. lunch was quinoa with a mix of salad and vegetables. dinner maybe a potato soup, quinoa and vegetables (curries). during the day some apples and fruits. no sweets (sometimes 70%+ chocolate), which was actually reall the hardest thing. i never even had the idea to smoke a cigarette, but i oftenthought of cake, cookies, etc. oh and everything is organic now.
I finished the cleanse 2 weeks ago and feel awesome!
I started working out(40 min/day all body power training using body weight only) directly after the cleanse, targeting 3000kcal per day and about 100g protein, to build muscles (also have back problems) and gain weight, targeting something like 80kg. In order to get the protein, i added a lot of soy products and also introduced about 50g hemp protein (shake with distilled water only) directly after the workout. I also started to take vitamin b12 supplement today (1000mcg methylcobalamin) as i learned that vitamin b12 only exists in animal food and is in fact quite important
That is basically where i am now. I hope i did not bore you with these details and my life... Would be great to learn about your thoughts and how to move forward
Wholeness brother!
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You are really already on your way!!!
There are only a few things that should be massaged for you to better grasp some concepts...
I will further add to this later for you, but right off the bat 100 g of protein a day is probably near undigestible and even if it were, you'd be stressing yours digestive system to the max. The B12 'issue' is really a non-issue. There are just toooo many vegetarians/ vegetarian cultures that have lived long and basically dis-ease free lives without the aid of a supplement.
When i respond later/tomorrow I will address all those things. Also, I think I may just send you some things that I have written for others to help them understand, and maybe that will facilitate your innerstandings.
Cheers
-Zen
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Permalink Reply by Elke on
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Wakefulness to you Sucram. I want to personally thank you for even trying to change your dietary path. Going upstream is getting more prevalent these days in regards to what we put in our mouths and bellies, and I am always overjoyed when I see someone else shedding unnecessary and detrimental things from their lives.
I've been on a plant strong, animal product less diet for over 5 years now, and it is definitely successful for intelligent people willing to research and try different things out. Everyone has different nutritional needs depending on their level of activity, their mental and physical addictions to food, and their proximity to food- what's readily available to them and in their income range.
I get a lot out of learning from a few mentors who have been on a nutrition/science path for many years, and Dr. Jameth Sheridan from Health Force is a great resource for me. His recent video with John Kohler is very informative. Check it out.
If this doesn't work, here is the link to Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFNFGgGGi8U
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Heya Elke, hope all is well! Thanks for that source. I must admit i had to stop because the delivery of these guys is shocking. Not sure why they were yelling non stop. There may be some truth in it but i couldnt listen to somone who talks like this .... There are millions of sources and doctors, books, youtube videos out there and everyone is telling you somethng slightly different. I think Overall there is a lot oppinion out there on the subject of what is a good and what is a bad food, or diet.
I took the initial advice from zen, adding more potatos to promote gaining more weight. It feels right as i like them and cant get enough of potatoes... Maybe thats already my natural bodies Appetite coming back to me :)
... I will keep on digging and trying things that make sense. Will report back.
Also, Regards to kyle :)
Marcus
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Expansion and Energy
I will continually add to this for you, so you can grab something and then come back and find an egg of knowledge after implementing a few things.
I just got a new computer, so I am tracking down my old writings from the old one, and as I find them, I will pass them on.
Probably the best thing to consume after a workout is going to be Raw Honey, Fruit and any type of amino acid provider that you see fit. Your body is going to be looking to immediately replenish sugars and start to rebuild the micro-tears in your slow twitch muscle fibers. The quickest way to get energy to the body is through fruit- especially freshly juiced as it allows your digestive system to stay out of the energy consumption battle as much as possible. Your muscles will essentially be getting first go at the minerals/vitamins/amino's that they need to repair stronger. I'm sure you know, but if not, you should be rep'ing low numbers with heavier weights to complete exhaustion to aid in the breakdown of the muscle fibers - you could stay in the gym for hours on end, but if you never put immense pressure on your muscles, you will never see any gains.
The complex carbo-HYDRATEs are very vital to your body, so these underground tubers, when consumed in soup (supper) for a last meal will provide your body with the dense nutrition it needs to continue repair through the evening, where the majority of muscle increase will take place.
David Wolfe does a great talk on the process from sugars to carbs to oils that I will try to hunt down for your that helps a great bit with the science behind this process.
As I was explaining with the 3 levels to your temple and 3 levels to food - it coordinates with not only the seasons and the levels of the body, but the microcosmic template of time. So, when you consume a fruit from the 'heaven's' it will be the most rarified in terms of energy density and delivery in the quickest amount of time. Eat an orange and you will immediately get the energy into your system for use. This even connects into Aromacology - where you will see that the Nose Knows Gnosis, and the aroma molecules will enter through the nose, which is the only way DIRECTLY to the brain, this has profound effects on consciousness and energy expansion. Even going to the gym and taking a bottle of say sperment (SPEAR the MIND) will give you great focus and energy. Not to get off track too much...
When you eat, say a vegetable, because of the make up of the proteins it will allow for a delivery across a longer period of time. You can see even in the language and how the fruit/veg is geometrically aligned with our environment, what and when each should be consumed. Hearty is never thought of with a strawberry or a peach, but it is considered a 'light' meal. You don't see hearty, 'meaty' heavy Yams hanging from trees. They are the base of plant kingdom and should be seen as an addition to your base.
As far as when to consume what foods - make it simple. When do you want a boost of energy, look up! When do you want a strong hearty meal, look to the foundation. How can you maintain your levels throughout the day, look at the vegetation right in front of you.
Soy is wonderful, just do your research on it, as you are going to want sources that are the most bio-available. If you look to a lot of the soy eating cultures, you will find that they almost ALWAYS ferment the soy. The soy people are picking up today tends to be GMO and not fermented. Living Soy is the way to go. On this note, get yourself some raw unpasteurized nuts and put them in some distilled water overnight to sprout the nuts. This basically 'unlocks' the dense and unavailable proteins in the nuts, and breaks it down for you so that you can process the nuts in a quicker fashion with more nutrition available. Make these nuts into nut milk! Add some raw honey and vanilla beans for a fantastic base for a smoothie or drink it as is, or even use it in your breakfast. Basically take the nuts/seeds after they have been sprouted and put them in a blender for a bit with equal amounts of distilled water (more/less depending on how creamy you want it), then get yourself a nut-milk bag (or go and get a paint strainer bag for a lot less from amazon or a local home store) and wring out that delicious milk.
Since you seem to want to put on weight, the main idea is to make your body use it's energy you are providing it in the most efficient way possible. The less energy expended on the digestion process the more you have for working out and for your body to repair/build itself.
One other thing I suggest is to look to nature. What are the strongest biggest vegetarian animals? What is their diet? How can you mimic or add some of their techniques into your own life. One of the biggest hints I can give you is to get yourself some wheatgrass seeds and start growing that grass to be juiced and start adding this to your diet.
Magnesium is a vital nutrient that almost all of us are low on - everyone screams for more calcium, but they don't have an understanding that it is vital to have a balance of MAGnesium, or the uptake of calcium will be hindered. Just as sodium intake is balanced by potassium. So, the MAGnesium is found in chlorophyll... And as far as sodium's buddy - bananas will help with that. Bananas and Wheatgrass - interesting to see the strength of the animals that consume these two things primarily. This could lead me down to the ideas of Cow's and how they produce milk-FAT without ever consuming anything with FAT in it...and how there s*** gives you psychedelic mushrooms, thus the term HOLY S*** and HOLY COW. I'll save this fun(gus) for another time.
Hopefully, this helps to give you some ideas to play with and thing about and see what resonates with you. I try to squeeze as much vital ideas into a small space as seeds for people so sometimes things seem to be left hanging so I am absolutely happy to share more with you on anything you may be confused about or have more questions concerning.
In Lak' ech
-Zen
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Zen, thanks so much for these lines! Really appreciated and inspiring. I am re-calibrating some things as we speak.
Increasing bananas/fruits while continuing my hemp shakes after work-out is already implemented. Moreover, yes, definitely nuts and my 70%+ chocolate to cover up magnesium shortage (nuts and cacao are rich in magnesium as well). Watering the nuts and using them for shakes is a great hint!! I will probably add to the mixer some quinoa, a bit of tahin, banana and maybe cinnamon & honey for the taste. It will help me cutting out the soy-milk and it will also speed up my breakfast as I don't need to chew anymore :)
I have researched on Soy a bit and I am thinking to cut out soy-milk and tofu as they are all using un-fermented soy. I need to dive into this a bit more as fermented soy products are not so well available and definitely a lot more expensive over here...
Adding wheat grass seems obvious after some initial research - fresh will be the best but most expensive option...unless I grow it in the backyard...but: only possible in summer, so I am thinking about good quality organic powder to begin with. This would be easier to obtain regularly as well (amazon)... not quite sure yet.
Lunch and dinner will be more groundish with more potatoes, less quinoa all kind of veggies, ginger, coconut....and if I find it fermented soya. I am actually getting pretty hungry writing this :):)
Thanks a again man! Will track my weight & report back. I am super energetic already looking forward to see these refinements kicking in and get the weight issue sorted... really stoked about whats happening!
Marcus
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Yes Sucram, they are loud and impassioned. It makes me laugh in some ways, because just like the title of this website "The Resistance" it will not appeal to everyone. Sometimes the most informative things come not so nicely gift wrapped. For me at this point, I can use a little passion around veganism coming from a dietary expert like Jameth, and John Cohler just always shouts so I think he sets the tone. If you had seen any of their videos you would have this awareness and prob not be bothered. You would take it like you would take the newest Sevan video, with him loudly and impassioned sharing his info. Which either drwas you in, or pushes you away, or perhaps makes you ask yourself- why am I bothered..You never know what delivery method will appeal to people.
From myself and Kyle this is what is daily consumed and successful for us in maintaining weight and getting a broad spectrum of nutrients: (also within our budget). Our diet is Rawfoodists that eat Quinoa- QuinRaw foodists hehe
*We only use organic ingredients in our diet. If organic is not available, we make different food*
Daily:
Smoothie with: Warrior Blend Protein by Sunwarrior foods, Vitamineral Green, Maca root, Chia, Organic frozen peaches & strawberries, Organic Apple juice
Gopals Seaweed Nori wrapped power wraps
Fruit: a couple of apples or pears daily (whatever is in season) sometimes with fresh almond butter
Kombucha : a couple of glasses a day, we buy it by the 1/2 gallon made locally (gives us healthy bacteria and a tonic for the liver)
A couple of handfuls of sprouted almonds
Usually raw "cold" marinated veggies dinner : Celery, Zucchini, Kale, onions, heirloom carrots, avocado, lemon, coconut aminos, sesame oil,ginger paprika, celtic salt, topped with sunflower sprouts
With Quinoa "Kyle style": Quinoa, coconut oil, celtic salt, and or coconut aminos or braggs, sometimes nori, nurtional yeast
Coconut macaroons, raw chocolate and almond butter and fruit smoothies for deserts- sometimes coconut pudding
Every other day or so we get a big salad from the local healthfood store. I also eat Marinated Kale at my work (Wholefoods) almost daily.
I make us almond hummus a couple of times a week and flax crackers, which we will eat on and off for a few days with our meals
We eat a a tablespoon or 2 of Raw Saurkraut daily too, or kimchi
Sometimes we have Miso soup and brazil nuts blended up for a soupy change
Tonight: We made fresh salsa, guacamole, with flax crackers and quinoa.
Those are our staples. We feel very well rounded in our diet. Wholeness and Wakefulness to you Friend!
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whoa Elke!! Can I come over for dinner tonight? Looks delicious !!
:) guess it would be a really expensive dinner for me though...and I wouldn't make it in time either :(
Also Thank You for your bits and pieces. We are also only using organic food, trying new recipes everyday - so its good to get new ideas and ingredients. You know what? This weekend the coolest thing happened - just around the corner of our house a vegan cafe/restaurant opened up. They are in the trial phase and I met a vegan cook & dietary consultant, she is holding courses on a monthly basis and maybe I am lucky and she puts me on the list for May. How cool is that!? It feels like you are not only placing questions on this site but you place it in the universe and then the universe creates the right events & directs the right people to cross your pass so that you get your questions answered. Still super-stoked :) and it can only get better :):)
Have a wonderful high frequency week
Marcus
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